INTERVIEW:
“There is broad thinking that the US cannot afford to walk away like they’ve done twice” — Riaz Mohammad Khan
Pakistan is an important ally for the US in this region but the relationship is periodically fractured and mired in distrust. How has this changed for the worse?
This downturn in relations needs to be arrested. Here basically the government has asked parliament to review relations because this has become an emotive issue and Pakistan is close to an election. After the Salala incident last year, the government said that all stakeholders should share responsibility for whatever policy is chalked out.
Any sensible ruling government would want normal relations with the US. It is not about receiving aid but we need American goodwill, especially when it comes to trade and economic matters. There are specific issues precipitated by events in 2011, the Raymond Davis case, Osama bin Laden and Salala. Some of these should have been anticipated and prevented like in the Davis case when CIA contractors were given visas and allowed to enter the country in large numbers. There was already the experience of Blackwater in Iraq in 2006. If CIA contractors were given visas by the foreign office, then this kind of incident was bound to happen because the Americans don’t always understand local culture. Where the OBL issue is concerned, the Americans also overreached in many ways and there was need for better sensitivity on their part. Then if you look at the history of drone attacks, these strikes escalated in 2010 compared to 2007-08. There was pressure from Pakistan that these strikes should be coordinated.
Drone attacks escalated with the Obama government despite Pakistan’s objections. Also intelligence sharing between both
governments also continues.
The first drone attack targeted Nek Mohammad in 2004 in South Waziristan and he was more of a nuisance for us than the Americans. In 2010 these strikes escalated. There is controversy that a large number of people have been killed and very few were targets and so the net result was anger that feeds militancy rather than helping the situation.
After the recent parliamentary review on relations between the US and Pakistan, will drone attacks increase?
There has been a considerable reduction and I don’t think there will be another escalation. We have every right to ask the US not to fly drones over Pakistani territory and that they respect our sovereignty. However, that also calls for certain responsibility on our part. That Pakistani territory must not be used for militant activities and if Pakistan fails to exercise that responsibility then we should expect an escalation of drone strikes or other forms of retaliation.
How vital will Pakistan remain to US interests in the region after the drawdown begins in Afghanistan? In the future, how will cross-border militancy be reduced at a time when Nato and Afghan forces end joint-operations?
There is talk of a counterterrorism force based in Afghanistan on special bases but there’s a question mark about the Status of Force Agreement that will not be negotiated this year. These kinds of issues will be negotiated in 2013 because there is an election next year. So far there is no final agreement on how many US forces will stay back after 2014. There have been negotiations about night raids and Afghan prisons to be handed over to the government. What we expect next month at the Nato summit is firm commitment on funding Afghan security. So far there is indication that the US will certainly continue with substantial aid assistance. And we know the Afghan economy today is sustained by a war economy. There is broad thinking that the US cannot afford to walk away like they’ve done twice. The consequence of the first was 9/11 and of the second, the revival of the Taliban insurgency after the US was distracted with Iraq.
What scenario do you see for a post-Karzai term?
Let’s not talk about the politics of the region because there are surprises. We are not talking about settled democratic institutions but conflict situations, fluid situations. So for anyone to give an answer to what could happen during the post-Karzai transition is difficult. Even if Karzai remained, my guess would be that economic assistance will continue.
In, Afghanistan and Pakistan: Conflict, Extremism, and Resistance to Modernity, you explain that backing the Afghan Taliban is not a viable option because it would threaten Pakistan’s internal security. How can we counter growing extremism and an overtly religious narrative in Pakistan?
If we talk about the local extremists, obscurantists, we have to deal with it as a society, as a country, as a people. And my thesis says there is an intellectual crisis. Today you will find educated people sympathising with the Taliban’s worldview and praising them.
Is this a new phenomenon?
This kind of religious extremism has grown over a period of years. This crisis of thought and confusion is not just restricted to the Taliban and their sympathizers. Take the example of how madrassas have gained support. I have seen educated and progressive people who believe these are the best charitable institutions. Now the confusion in this kind of thinking, as I see it, is that you leave two and a half million of the country’s young people and children to these institutions and have no concept of what they study, how useful they will become as citizens after their studies and what they will adopt as professions if at all. Are they getting vocational training, studying the sciences and can they get into colleges after? Can they opt to become doctors, engineers after a madrassah education? Those who say that these are the best institutions are confused about contemporary challenges to a modern society. This pattern of thought has become more pronounced in society today permeating into public discourse on policy and politics.
Should Pakistan play a role in the Afghan reconciliation process, especially when it’s about bringing certain factions of the Taliban’s older leadership to negotiate?
Reconciliation itself is validation of Pakistan’s position on the Taliban which it took at the time of the first Bonn process. At the time Pakistan suggested to the Americans that they bring the Taliban into the fold because they were part of the political landscape. Then the US had grouped the Taliban together with al Qaeda under one militant umbrella organisation. Once the Americans turned around on their policy, it was a validation of Pakistan’s position. They could afford to change their position as a superpower. There are others who have a role apart from the Afghans when negotiations happen: the US as the occupying force and Pakistan due to its peculiar geographic position. Pakistan must not thrust its position and demand a seat on the table but play a positive role to persuade the Taliban. We have never been able to convince the Afghans in the past even when they were eating out of our hands because of our ‘soft’ culture. My book brings out this point about the mujahedeen before the Taliban that Pakistan failed to convince.
How important are the Haqqani’s to Pakistan as strategic assets?
It is not that Pakistan gives sanctuary because then we would consider them assets. I have strongly contested this point. They are not assets because they cannot go into Kabul as part of a future set-up. If you look at the history of the Haqqani’s, they are part of the Zarghan tribe in North Waziristan, Khost, Paktia and Paktika. They are the strongest tribe with influence. Now, how do you tackle this situation as Pakistan? It’s a historically embedded situation that you can’t take head-on because your own countrymen will say that Pakistan is fighting someone else’s war against its own people. You see the complexity. It is important to recognise this because in Swat it was not until public opinion turned against the Pakistani Taliban that the army went in and two million people were displaced. But that is a separate theatre.
On reconciliation with the Taliban I don’t feel the Americans are clear. They called off the Qatar process and they now feel that the Afghans should work it out themselves. They are also trying to weaken the Taliban in many other ways. They are spending about $10 billion per month only on the army which will be reduced.
What choices do the Americans have?
Things are changing in Afghanistan. The Taliban will not return. Mullah Omar won’t go back to capture Kabul. There is economic vibrancy in the country. The old Taliban leadership might want to reconcile and are trying to go back and Gulbadin Hekmatyar is trying to negotiate a position. But local influences should be accommodated and that is a process that the Afghans will determine. It’s not something that the Americans or Pakistan can determine.
Should Pakistan know better than to demand a role in the endgame given its own internal crisis?
If anyone is looking for a neat cut off, that won’t happen. The best solution is that the violence decreases. It’s an amorphous situation and a neat strategic plan would be simply academic. In that overall view, Pakistan should look out for two variables.
We must hold back because if we are pro-active, it is will create problems within Afghanistan and we should not interfere and sponsor any groups. Secondly, we must have confidence that the nature of Pak-Afghan relations is such that Pakistan has an indispensable importance for Afghanistan and in a reverse way that holds true for Afghanistan. Turmoil in Afghanistan would impact Pakistan and vice versa.
How do Afghanistan’s historic regional neighbours react to this situation?
Central Asia is concerned about northern Afghanistan, which is quite stable because of the warlords. There is no factionalism, and as long as there’s no violence, then it’s an acceptable situation. The sensible thing would be to let the Afghan’s deal with their problems. They are past masters at playing with outside influences and if these are reduced then they are pragmatic enough to progress.
Does Pakistan’s objection to Indian economic influence make sense?
Pakistan cannot and must not object to India giving assistance. When it comes to other areas such as training the forces, then there are many questions: if they are trained by India then one questions the overall mind-set of these troops. Why shouldn’t Turkey train the army or Nato continue training the Afghan forces. The Afghan government should be sensitive to this aspect and Pakistan should have no reservation on the economic and reconstruction aspects.
After the recent Kabul attacks, would you say the Afghan national forces are capable of taking control of security post-2014?
What has emerged from these attacks is that the national army was able to cope with it in a city like Kabul with minimum casualties within a sufficient time period. If we were to go by that then I think such incidents should be a source of confidence to the new army. In this transition period, one of the more important aspects is whether the army is ready to control such incidents. If you look at the entirety of the country, the warlords keep their own areas somewhat protected in a situation of calm even though they keep the central authority at bay. What is left is basically Kabul and the southern provinces. The situation is now transiting towards the containment of violence and if there is success, then we might see the curtailing of a 30-year-old conflict.
Some death-bed options for Pakistan
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Pakistan's ex-foreign secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan has just published his second book Afghanistan and Pakistan: Conflict, Extremism and Resistance to Modernity (OUP 2011) and it is full of pointers about where we should we go as Pakistan stands on the brink of failing as a state.
Riaz Mohammad Khan writes the following note on how Pakistan should proceed if it wants to survive:
'Pakistan's ambition to become a hub of economic activity would be difficult to materialise without the opening of transit routes to India. When the idea of activating the KKH for commerce with Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan was initiated by Pakistan in early 1993, the two countries were enthusiastic. The Kazakh minister for transportation convened a meeting and invited ambassadors from both Pakistan and India based in Alma Ata. He was disappointed to learn that India could not be included at that time, in view of tensions in relations between the two South Asian neighbours. The size of India's market creates the potential and generates interest to liven up prospects of overland transit'.
Pakistan Army's options
In August 2011, the big new development is a slight relaxation of our tight foreign policy towards India, obviously allowed by a hidden military think tank involving the ISI too. Before diplomacy in the Foreign Office abandoned its Kashmir scowl a bit, the ISPR said Pakistan should go ahead with trade with India; and that led to commerce secretaries saying nice things about the most favoured nation status that Pakistan has to give to India.
The follow-up has allowed four days for cross-LoC trade as opposed to two in the past and hopefully the ISI will not choke it off again causing losses to innocent Azad Kashmiri traders. But what is most notable is the foreign ministers' different verbalisation about each other when they met recently in New Delhi. We need to un-tighten the policy sphincter a little more and get through trade what we will simply not get on such Foreign Office default preconditions as Kashmir, Sir Creek, Siachen, Wullar Barrage, etc.
Sri Lanka feared Indian invasion but what did it do? It signed a free trade agreement. The peace dividend saw its economy grow at a rate that Pakistan envies. And it got rid of the Tamil terrorists without India minding it too much
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Pakistan Army should let foreign policy go. One says it because all armies attach foreign policy to geopolitics and therefore disqualify themselves as arbiters. They tie a most changeable category to the most unchanging physical aspect of the country where they imagine they see permanent advantage. Geopolitically, India is a permanent enemy. Geopolitically, Pakistan's median 'transit territory' status gives it permanent advantage. Nothing could be more wrong.
A state is important because it is a 'connecting territory'. Other people pass through it to cut down on distances. Trade plied through it makes the commodities competitive in price. This means that the geographically important state has to develop its roadways and railways, and other infrastructure such as hotels, to facilitate those who wish to pass through. Once the geographically 'connective' state has become an effective corridor of passage, its importance is no doubt established. And the dividend of this importance comes in economic terms and through an absence of war.
The bomb was not meant for war as most clerics think. It is good as a weapon of peace and for free-trading, and that is what Pakistan should do
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There are however two ways of looking at 'geopolitical importance'. One is the 'civilian' approach which is described above. The other is the 'military' approach which relies on geography as 'obstacle' rather than 'connection'. The military mind says: we are in the middle and we will not let you pass unless you agree to our terms. (To India, we say let's talk Kashmir before we talk free trade.) This is a masculine approach and doesn't allow penetration without first acquiring the dividend; the civilian approach allows penetration before acquiring the dividend. In the case of Pakistan, it is the military view of geopolitical importance that has held sway.
The military view of Pakistan's geopolitical importance has been proved wrong by the failure of the theory of 'strategic depth' as a kind of corollary to our self-image as a geopolitical obstacle. As some textbooks recognise, the geopolitical view of international affairs is favoured by all armies because it is linked to geography and therefore is of fixed value. And it obviates the periodical rewriting of textbooks the army officers read during training. The only geography that works however is the one based on the civilian view: Finland could exploit its 'median' location during the Cold War while Pakistan could not.
The advantage will materialise only after the trade route becomes functional and billions of international dollars become committed to it
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Today the civilian geopolitical advantage is a part of the war equation in South Asia. The military imagination is fixed on it as 'one time advantage': once a trade route is given to India, Pakistan will lose its upper hand. The fact is that the advantage will materialise only after the trade route becomes functional and billions of international dollars become committed to it.
'What Pakistan has to abandon is its 'strategic depth' approach to its neighbourhood. Ex-foreign secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan, who says he once questioned General Musharraf on the army's wrong thinking, has the following observation:
'Political analysts often point out that two considerations preoccupied Pakistan Army's strategic thinking relating to its support to various Afghan Mujahedin groups: first, a view of Afghanistan as providing strategic depth to Pakistan, and secondly, an interest in having a friendly government in Afghanistan. While the concept of a friendly government was flawed, the aspiration of strategic depth in Afghanistan defied reason from the point of view of the traditional interpretation of the concept. Friendly government is a highly subjective concept that encourages patronage and interference and spawns suspicion and provocation'.
Pakistan government's options
Retired army officers, and retired and serving diplomats, who get to write articles and appear on Pakistan's conservative TV networks, provide the explosive material for wrong policies that blow up in our faces. Riaz Mohammad Khan describes them in the following words:
'A siege mentality is also manifest in aggressive patriotism and narrow nationalism. The sentiment is especially evident among retired mid-level officials, both military and civilian, and religiously inclined middle-class citizens, who have imbibed suspicion towards the West, hostility towards India, and pride in a culture of patriotic self-righteousness typical of middle classes in many societies. This mentality induces further stress in an environment of anger, suspicion, dissension, and delusions in which extremist tendencies breed and thrive'.
Pakistan is fast coming apart, existentially and in terms of thinking. The reason is the dwindling of factors that hold life together. The economy cannot be allowed to start growing through cheap money if law and order are not ensured. As people become unemployed through a shrinking of the economy, their inclination to vandalism and crime becomes not only possible but - to them - morally justified.
The state is sliding to a halt. It cannot run the facilities it has inherited. It cannot guarantee the survival of those in the private sector. The first and last signature of the state - security of property rights - is fading. The writ of the state is gone in a large part of its territory and going in what is left. If the rupee slides through dollarisation and through hyper-inflation, the state may have to be labelled 'failed state'.
What is to be done? So far, Pakistan is challenging the US on the basis of a thinking that weighs Pakistan heavier in the strategic scale, retired diplomats and generals saying America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America. Pakistan Army is fighting the terrorists in the Tribal Areas but also gets the civilian authorities to hound American diplomats as a sop to the Taliban and al Qaeda. It has no money to fight the terrorists with but hates the Americans doing the fighting for it.
Is Pakistan simply creating chaos, in the words of the French scholar Olivier Roy? Is Pakistan Army creating chaos just because America wants to create order? The economists in Pakistan have finally disengaged themselves from the Pak Army and textbook thinking that India wants to occupy Pakistan and rule Muslims. They think that, while the world is suffering from economic crisis, two neighbours of Pakistan, China and India, are growing at high rates. They see Pakistan surviving only as a part of the South Asian economy.
This doesn't mean Pakistan kowtowing to India. It doesn't mean Pakistan giving up Kashmir. It simply means Pakistan integrating with India and growing in tandem with it, taking in investment and benefiting from low wages, allowing India a land route to Central Asia, providing pipeline-fed gas to energy-starved India and letting people cross the Indian border under a liberal visa regime. After that Pak Army can turn around and take on the terrorists before they get to our nukes.
Sri Lanka feared India and had a Tamil minority that took to terrorism to get their rights. There was the Tamilnadu state across the strait with 65 million Tamils to Sri Lanka's 24 million population. Sri Lanka feared Indian invasion but what did it do? It signed a free trade agreement - Pakistan has signed one too but not ratified it - and benefited from it. The peace dividend saw its economy grow at a rate that Pakistan envies. And it got rid of the Tamil terrorists without India minding it too much.
Pakistan is different from India's other neighbours. It is a nuclear power. But the bomb Pakistan made was not meant for war as most clerics think. Pakistan cannot use the bomb for fighting India, as it did at Kargil. At war, it will be defeated as it was in 1971 and 1999. But the bomb is good as a weapon of peace and for free-trading, and that is what Pakistan should do. For counter-terrorism, Pakistan needs writ of the state and for that it needs to fight the terrorists. It is a circular argument.
Pakistan needs friends who can give it the money it needs to fight terrorism. It is picking the wrong enemies in America, Europe, India and - if you insist - Israel.
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Comments (7 comments)
My God shouldnt this be obvious to everyone!
Posted: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 by Muhammad from Karachi
Sir Khalid ahmad is always right and now authentication has been drawn from a reliable source...the book's author....as the latter has been close to the the government serving on an important post....terms are rich in conveying their meanings and much more......And yes....no one has a second opinion as far is the concern of the power imbalance in Pakistan and ultimately its consequences in the form being caught in the quagmire of the strategic depth and the conspiracy theories of yahoodee,hanoodee and taghootee forces...For Heaven Sake think with sense.
Posted: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 by wazir from Pakistan
You should study India Bangladesh trade before making a case for trade. I have looked at the numbers and it seems that India wants one way trade. Prove me wrong.
Posted: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 by Parvez Mahmud from California
I have a lot of respect for Mr Riaz Mohammad Khan as a professional diplomat and a man of mature vision and independent ideas.Having said that His out right rejection of every one elses point of view by categorising it into some totally incompetent and flawed minds and a self righteous mindset to carry the arguements is too simplistic for a serious readers liking.Hard realities cannot be ignored and to give an impression that someone in Pakistan should be willingly creating enemies to fight is downright flawed and trying to please a certain audience.Economic benifits and trade are very important but so is the respect and security of a state.Why should we alternately prefer a hostile Afghanistan and it shouldnt concern us and the concept of strategic depth as being put forward to ridicule its advocates is totally flawed and a self serving argument.We need to be friendly to all and help US help us win our war against our enemies but not by keeping us in the dark by who are doing it ,and what all are they doing in OUR Country .What somebody does in Afghanistan or India or else where they could and ideally should share if they consider us as allies but what they do in Pakistan they need not only share but coordinate with us and we should retain the right to veto because that is how all independent and self respecting states do business with others even in tiny countries like Singapore and Brunei.
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 by sallahuddin satti from Brunei Darussalam
Pakistan is viewed as a blackmailing thug with nuclear capabilities. It has failed to develop the right resources for it's survival, and strategic planning without resources is HALLUCINATION! Time is approaching to carefully isolate and save, salvageable and manageable portions of Pakistan. Hopefully these parts will coexist with the rest of humanity.
Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2011 by Dr Patel from sailing somewhere in Carribian
An interesting set of ideas which are fresh. They deserve to be examined closely. What I believe left out in this analysis is the role that the Saudi-Gulf rulers have played in the last two decades to foment trouble in South Asia through instigating terrorism. India and Pakistan together can sort out these meddlesome rulers!
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 by Kumar Venkatraman from Hyderabad India
Very bold and new thinking. If Pak becomes a failed state, only its political leaders need to be blamed. People repeatedly voted for a democratic government, but the ruling elite never deliver goods to people. There are lot of hard-working people there and all they want is prosperity and normalcy in life.
Posted: Friday, August 12, 2011 by Shawn Reddy from USA
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